Essences

[Tanio]

I'd like to know more about the way essences will be handled.

I prefer PWs with a token based perma-death system - that is, a system where you can fall in battle (die) a certain number of times before being dead for good, so this system sounds nice. It promotes a risk vs reward environment where skilled characters (players) thrive instead of those who.. well, simply put, are the most online (in months and years). It also allows the shift of powers as some, or many, higher level players die for good. With an xp loss system they'll always be present unless a DM decides (arbitrarily or not) it's time for them to go.

What I'm interested in:

We only know that with each death the maximum amount of essences will be lowered. The starting maximum amount is 50?

How many essences are lost upon dying and how hard is it to replenish the maximum amount back? What are the ways of replenishing the maximum amount, if there are any? The current amount, as far as I remember, recharges when out of combat (and is lost when killing enemies).

My concern is - if there are ways to replenish the maximum amount it would make this whole system trivial. 50 maximum essences seems a lot to burn through as well, as you only lose the max amount upon dying. I'm wondering if this will have any impact perma-death wise, i.e. a considerable amount of people will perma-die through this system, or if it's just a charade.

[RSO]

Howdy, welcome to DC! I hope you don't take anything I'm about to say too personally - I'm a bit crass sometimes.

I don't think that permadeath by game mechanics was the intent of the system at all.

In previous iterations of DC, game mechanical "death" represented grievous, but survivable, injuries, the respawn button cost only EXP, and it was on us as players to remember that the respawn button was an OOC mechanic meant to bail us out when stuff went wrong.

Even with the essence system, your character is not permanently dead even at a max essence of zero - it just means that you have to be online and someone has to find your character and scrape them up with a revive spell or item. Permadeath coming out of game mechanics always feels sour, partly because of how random the game is. The cost of having people lose their character for failing one fortitude save too many is (in my opinion) way higher than the value it offers. The PvP and grief play implications of such a system are even greater. By reserving permanent death for player consent or DM ruling, the thought of "Death" can be kept out there as something for a character to fear, without having the player to constantly be paranoid about losing their character.

It's always been the case that people can hit level 20 fairly quickly, and after level 20, the only EXP you get is DM-awarded (for RP nominations or participating in events). In the next chapter, this is being expanded so that DM-awarded EXP accrued before level 20 also increases your EXP cap, so that grinding to max level and then starting to RP won't have a mechanical incentive.

Rather than rewarding players for masterful use of game mechanics to kill more monsters without dying, it rewards players for participating in the community and story.

[Terimos]

(Bah, RSO beat me to it, however if there is anything you are still confused on after that post, maybe mine can supplement it.)

As I understand, the system is not meant to be a mechanical permadeath so much as a way to discourage abuse of the respawn system. Essence will decrease as you fight monsters or loot chests, decreasing your essence in this way decreases loot quality, experience earned, and are even tied to mechanical disadvantages.

However, when you respawn, your capacity to hold essence decreases. Essence itself recharges over time, but the capacity can only be restored through DM quest XP or other means that will be introduced later on in the module. Resurrecting a player instead of respawning will not decrease that character's essence capacity, however it will decrease that of the cleric. If you reach 0 essence capacity and are dead, then you cannot respawn and must be resurrected by a cleric.

In this way, the system is less a mechanical permadeath and more one of player interdependency. Of course, since I'm not a DM/Admin, all of the above is subject to corrections from the team, however I think all this should give you a good feeling for the setup anyway.

[Clockwork]

Essence, and death, is more fully explained on the DoN forums.

Essence capacity is lost upon death. This can only be restored by using quest xp (xp granted by DMs or recieved through Roleplay nominations) or by being raised by a cleric - however, the cleric will then suffer the essence capacity reduction. Later on, we also hope to have extremely rare one-use items that can restore essence capacity, likely as rewards for epic-level dungeons.

When essence capacity reaches 0, that character can only be raised by a cleric. They may not auto-raise.

The essence and death system is one of those that is due for heavy testing during beta week. The values may go up or down, and for that reason I don't want to go into specifics right now, as it may change significantly by launch. This will be fully detailed in the DoN FAQ board, though, under 'Death.'

Permadeath, the complete death of a character, is not something handled by mechanics. It is either decided by a player wishing to retire their character, or the responsibility of a DM due to in-game events.

Edit: Terimos and RSO beat me to it.

[Tanio]

RSO,


That's cool and all... but you're neglecting how big of a factor adventuring is (which includes killing monsters and solving quests).

Some would like all the xp being handed out as a consequence of talking around a campfire (and other rp actions), however that's not only terribly unrealistic but unbelievably boring as well.

People should fear facing that nasty ogre in the cave or the greater mummy in that dark crypt.. if the only drawback to dying to them is a slight xp loss, then nobody fears that and it makes adventuring lame which can affect rp. That is, *if* you don't adventure around just to roleplay communication with your party members and get some rp xp which can also be done around a campfire.

Also, without mechanical perma-death, you see the same high-level characters every day and it becomes stale.

You could try to stop seeing adventuring and defeating monsters without dying as "mastering game mechanics".. you would probably enjoy it more.

Oh, and thanks for the welcome.

PS.  I don't think an unfortunate fortitude save roll and death is any more sour than an unfortunate diplomacy roll and potential rp death afterward. A successful character should know his limits and not engage things that would kill him with an unfortunate roll. After all, this game is built upon numbers. You cannot run away from it or ignore it.

[thewanderingmystic]

Some valid points in your last post, Tanio, though I thought I'd address a couple things and point out another (again, don't take it personally, this is just how I come off):

PS.  I don't think an unfortunate fortitude save roll and death is any more sour than an unfortunate diplomacy roll and potential rp death afterward. A successful character should know his limits and not engage things that would kill him with an unfortunate roll. After all, this game is built upon numbers. You cannot run away from it or ignore it.

Unfortunately no matter how great your saves get, you will ALWAYS have a 1 in 20 chance of failing (or 5%). So no matter what you're packing, unless it's a party cleric with death ward, the game mechanics just cannot be avoided in this regard. It's not a "weakness" of your character. It's just inherent into the game. Not facing things that can kill you like that would seriously limit what you could face alone if you just wanted to go out and kill stuff.

Also, without mechanical perma-death, you see the same high-level characters every day and it becomes stale.

You're assuming characters are static, and don't change, sometimes drastically, over time and given their circumstances. Also, people play alts.


Which brings me to...

The overarching philosophy of DC as I've come to learn it over my experience in SoH: fun is paramount. This doesn't mean you disregard the wishes of the staff or the rules of the server. But it does mean that DC tries to cater to as many different types of players as it can. If you like to sit and RP by the fire, it does that. Want to solo dungeons? It provides. A system that enforces harsh death penalties may be exciting to some, but to many it is frustrating. Especially if you're the type of person that wants to flesh out a character's story arc over the server life and don't want that kind of death risk present to cut it off abruptly. I've played in PnP games where that kind of death was present every session, and when it finally happens I can say it wasn't for me.

You can certainly make the age old argument that something that tries to please everyone ultimately ends up pleasing far less people than it intends to. However, having played SoH, I can say the way the staff handles things here works very well and I am in no position to start doubting that now. Give this system a try, and I'm sure you'll like what you experience.

[Dinean]

by being raised by a cleric - however, the cleric will then suffer the essence capacity reduction.

So... why would a cleric want to raise or resurrect the dead then?

[RSO]

Bluntness warning x10. I hope I'm not reading too much into your tone when I assume that you don't mind a little hardball.

Some would like all the xp being handed out as a consequence of talking around a campfire (and other rp actions), however that's not only terribly unrealistic but unbelievably boring as well.

A bard doesn't get better at singing by sticking pointy pieces of metal in things. Do they sing as part of adventuring? Sure, that's a large part of the class, but it's equally unrealistic to prevent a bard from ever improving without going out and fighting battles. D&D doesn't give us the option of improving one thing without gaining a level, at least not without writing a messy subsystem.

In the previous chapter of DC before SoH, I played a character who couldn't fight for crap, and who made her living doing prestidigitation and illusion streetshows. Should that character have never ever been able to improve her magic? No, I don't think that all EXP should be handed out by DMs, but I think it's equally unreasonable to say that all EXP should be handed out by going out and bashing greenskins over the head to take their stuff.

Also, if there was a permadeath system, it would encourage people to stop adventuring entirely once they hit max level. The current system lets characters take the same risks as they always have for Gold and Glory even once the purely OOC mechanic stops being awarded, rather than punishing them.

People should fear facing that nasty ogre in the cave or the greater mummy in that dark crypt.. if the only drawback to dying to them is a slight xp loss, then nobody fears that and it makes adventuring lame which can affect rp. That is, *if* you don't adventure around just to roleplay communication with your party members and get some rp xp which can also be done around a campfire.

Characters should fear facing the nasty ogre or mummy. Whether or not players should is a weird question that I don't think there's any right answer to. If people RP as if the only consequence of dying is a slight xp loss, then yes, it's an immersion killer. The revive items and spells in DC usually carry side-effects, though, so bringing a character back up usually results in some in-character trauma anyway, if it's done right. The respawn button results in some OOC trauma as well, because you have to basically walk your character OOCly to the hospital or wherever your character's limp beaten near-dead body is being delivered and emote along the way "*Isn't here!*" or something.

Just because there's no OOC risk of permanently losing your character doesn't mean that people RP as if there were no IC risks, either. Just because you know that your character isn't at risk of dying doesn't mean that your character shouldn't think that it's their last words they're speaking, when they're barely clinging to life. They took a bad hit in that last fight? Take a moment to have your character ask their adventuring buddies to tell their spouse/lover/secret crush s/he loves them. (Don't do it every time, of course, and probably pick something less cliche, unless your character honestly wouldn't be able to think up with anything better. )

Also, without mechanical perma-death, you see the same high-level characters every day and it becomes stale.

1. New high level characters appear, and quickly. Getting to level 20 is not hard, nor time consuming. (I've never done it, because that's not the way I enjoy the game, but whatev's). If this weren't true, killing off the old high level characters wouldn't solve a damn thing. In fact, making permadeath a risk means that you're even less likely to see new high level characters, since lowbies can die in the 10-15 range and have to start over.
2. High level characters aren't the only people on the server. If "the same high-level characters every day" is getting dull, go RP with some low level ones. Have your wizard take on an apprentice, or give a lowbie rogue or fighter a job.
3. As thewanderingmystic said, characters aren't static.

You could try to stop seeing adventuring and defeating monsters without dying as "mastering game mechanics".. you would probably enjoy it more.

[snarky]You could try to stop seeing RP as sitting around a campfire. You'd probably enjoy it more.[/snarky] It's also more true because only the very surface-level of RP happens at the campfire, while every bit of "defeating monsters" and "without dying" is governed exclusively by game mechanics, and yes, there is a skill to master there.

A large part of RP is playing politics. DC has been very good in every chapter at creating a setting where there are many many factions conspiring to stop conspiracies.

Uncovering secrets, puzzling out mysteries, and pushing pieces around on the great chessboard of life (or being pushed around as a piece on the giant chessboard of life) all happen through RP. Bashing orcs over the head and taking their stuff happens through game mechanics and, unless there's a DM involved, doesn't really affect the balance of power much except that you now have more stuff and more EXP. (Note: This does not mean that it happens out of character.) The story is moved by RP. Some of this RP happens in dungeons, some of it happens in closed-door meetings, and yes, some of it happens around a campfire or over a mug of ale.

PS.  I don't think an unfortunate fortitude save roll and death is any more sour than an unfortunate diplomacy roll and potential rp death afterward. A successful character should know his limits and not engage things that would kill him with an unfortunate roll. After all, this game is built upon numbers. You cannot run away from it or ignore it.

If Permadeath/Not Permadeath is hinging on a single Bluff roll, it means that your days were numbered anyway. If you bluff your way out of the gallows today, you still might get caught tomorrow. I don't think I've ever rolled diplomacy. RP is about what you say, not how high of a diplomacy check you roll. (This doesn't mean don't put ranks in diplomacy if your character is a diplomat, but that's a tangent.)

The DC model of permadeath lets players choose when and how their character will die. Most of us choose to not have our characters die meaningless unceremonious deaths. If you want your character to die an unceremonious death, you're welcome to it. If you want someone else's character to die an unceremonious death because they don't have as high an armor class as you do, well, I don't think DC provides that.

[Most Dangerous Gorgewall]

So... why would a cleric want to raise or resurrect the dead then?

What happens when you don't do your job? You get fired. What happens when a God fires you? Well..

[Clockwork]

From Death on DC:

Roleplaying guideline on Death

The staff encourages that rather than playing death each time your character suffers "game-engine-death" that you RP-wise take it as being knocked out, gravely wounded and unable to fight on.

The reason being that death loses it importance if every man and his mother dies 10 times a day. Instead true death on SoH is when a character is perma-killed.

---

On DC it is not within the authority of players to permakill other people's characters. Therefore, it is considered common courtesy not to put a character in a situation where recovering from PvP is not feasible. This includes slitting other people's throats, decapitation, etcetera. [Chevy: This does not mean that you may only use subdual mode! This simply means that at the end of PvP, in normal circumstances, none of the combatants are beheaded, disembowled, or have wounds which are otherwise permanently incapacitating.]

This is an ooc rule, which means that naturally characters should consider themselves mortals in situations that could be lethal.

There will not be mechanical permadeath on DC for the reasons RSO gave - we just don't feel it is much fun. We don't want to punish characters that might be underpowered for RP reasons, or otherwise mechanically inferior. A well played character will still register his or her fears, however, and know their limits (or, at least, have decieved themselves into what they beleive their limits are).

If you don't enjoy RPing as much, that's fine - we cater to all comers here and all play styles are welcome. I've known people who played for several months and just enjoyed running the dungeons. You should be aware that this is an RP server, however, and we would like to encourage this as much as possible. In SoH that was essence - which recharged outside of combat areas. In DoN, it will be through death - when dying, your essence capacity is reduced, and the most common means of increasing it will be through using RP xp.

Note also that higher essence = more xp and better loot. So the lower your essence capacity, the lower your essence, and the smaller your xp gains and loot drops. And there is that risk that if you reach 0 capacity, you must seek out a cleric. This will be how we maintain risk/reward in dungeons, whilst still keeping them fun.

And this discussion should be continued on the DoN boards!

[Rogue]

I don't know though. I die a LOT. My characters always seem to wind up as really weak and just get their asses kicked. Every single frickin' time.

This system basicly means I have to have a damn good build to survive out there. If we are catering towards 'casual' players why do we have a 'when you reach 0, you're stuck'.

Logic suggests that inexperienced players are the first to reach 0.. and they get punished the hardest?

Puzzling. Same with the clerics, why would you want to punish a cleric who wants to help out someone? If the principle is 'teamplay' you'd want to encourage clerics to -help- people. Or at least if it fits with their deity / dogma.

I'm unsure how this works out in reality, but it seems as if the 'good samaritan' is a no go area. And something like a crappy ass RP build is not to be recommended either.

Sure the mechanic gives more weight to death, but I'm not really convinced this is the right way to go.

[Most Dangerous Gorgewall]

Don't underestimate what "catering to casual players" means. I soloed two of the starting dungeons with a caster Wizard using only melee, no spells, at level 2.. and you're supposed to start at 3.

If you die to anything but a series of lucky crits, especially in the starter dungeons, it's probably because you are AFK.

[RSO]

Don't underestimate what "catering to casual players" means. I soloed two of the starting dungeons with a caster Wizard using only melee, no spells, at level 2.. and you're supposed to start at 3.

If you die to anything but a series of lucky crits, especially in the starter dungeons, it's probably because you are AFK.

...I hope that's not intentional design. A better solution would be to ramp up the EXP given by Effortless/Easy enemies, as making the dungeons weak for their CR is just going to push people into dungeons that are rated as Overpowering or Impossible and screw up the EXP scale at best.

[Chevy]

The system has been changed during beta. Max essence is no longer lost upon respawn, only essence, and nothing will prevent you from respawning. I'll be collecting some death data after launch and we may see a return of this harsher system once we have a better idea of how easy it is to die in our new dungeons.

[Tanio]

RSO,


Sorry, I have no time or desire to read your wall of text (for each of my sentences) now so I just quickly read a few bits.

Yes, there are skills that are completely not combat oriented; but those are very few - feats are especially combat oriented. Therefore, it makes a LOT of sense to get the vast majority of experience through combat since you're essentially improving just your combat abilities. Actually, the whole idea of getting experience for roleplaying is silly beyond belief, but arguing it on a rp server would be fruitless I think. You should rp for your own pleasure and not for a mechanics award, right? You can't argue that for getting experience in combat because you're indeed improving your combat skills (yes, even wisdom, charisma and intelligence have a combat usage) by defeating enemies.


I'll quote from another site, because that's how I feel about permanent death:

"If characters were in fact immortal (like they basically are on this server), it would take away the nerve of the game, encouraging foolish risks and soloing. Having a high level character would then only be a matter of how much time one would spend online.

Permanent death adds a sense of realism to the game. It makes life precious, as well as trusted companions and tactics in combat vital in order to prevail. Threats are truly dangerous, since a character can die. This also makes high level characters rare and respected - exactly as they should be."


And worrying that this would utterly penalise "weak" characters is ridiculous. If someone chooses to build a weak character s/he should face the consequences, that's the whole point. I.e. that the character is more likely to die/be ineffective in combat. It's easy to boast how you're a great rper because you mass produce fighters with 18 charisma, intelligence and wisom with crap strength, dexterity and constitution when the consequences for doing so are laughable. In a perma death world you'd think twice about doing so - because there's a serious consequence, just like it should be. It would have a *meaning*.
The problem is you're afraid of (dire) consequences of your character building choices and don't want to deal with them. That makes rp a joke.